Saturday, February 26, 2005

Wasn't going to go there

I have avoided the whole homosexuality debate on my blog, mainly because I'm still working out where I stand on the whole thing, and because of the immature fighting that some people unfortunately got into at signposts.

I'm not gonna go into it, but this guy has made some very easy to read summations on things we need to be aware of when looking at the Biblical texts. I found the article he links a tough one, but check out what he has to say. It certainly makes you think.


blondzila said...

Excellent. One of the things I've always had trouble with in organized religion is the interpretive nature of each church. Every human has their own filters through which they interpret information that they are given. And this includes the words and messages of any testament in the Bible. Theoretically, the words are those from a higher power, interpreted via the inherently flawed (imperfect) man, and then over time it has been reinterpreted and translated from one language to another. It becomes like that children's game "Telephone": you all sit in a circle and the first person whispers something to the second, to the third and so on. The first message bears little relationship to the final one heard by the last in the circle.

Ruthie said...

I don't shy away from this issue - but that's because I'm somewhat personally invested in it.

Anyway - here's a post I made recently about my current thoughts on the matter.

I would be interested if you have any response

Clicketty Click

Graeme said...

I've read what "this guy" had to say, and some of the other comments on his blog. Whether you think that what he and others say makes you think or not depends on whether you believe what they say. Just because someone says it doesn't mean I accept it. For hundreds of years biblical scholars have been telling us one thing, then someone says they got it all wrong. I'm going to check it out, because I'm not sure all those guys from years gone past were all that dumb. For instance why not check out what is said about the use of words in the bible. So I have copied some stuff about biblical words cited.

Right at the start of the postings there is discussion on the use of the word abomination in the Old Testament, and it says that it is only used for ceremonial uncleaness. So I checked a Hebrew lexicon. Yep it applies to ceremonial uncleaness. True, but only half the story as it also applies in the ethical sense as well i.e. to wickedness. Now I am getting suspicious that what we are being fed is a lot of half truths. Let's pick out the stuff we like and chuck out the rest. It makes for a nice easy compatible, friendly gospel.

The writer is right in that we have no right to judge, but stating the truth is not judgement. We are to state the truth lovingly. Sometimes these days we don't say the truth for "fear of hurting people", but in a lot of cases not saying the truth hurts them a lot worse. Anyway, this is what the world calls being objective, and saying it like it is, isn't it?

A bit later on in the discussion some words in 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10 are discussed. In particular the words malakos and arsenokoitai are discussed. You could get the impression that biblical scholars throughout the centuries did not know the truth and set out to deceive people, or that biblical scholars of the past were just uninformed.

I used to think that when someone said a word "only appears in the bible once", that was all it appeared anywhere. Dope. How stupid of me. Didn't anybody else write anything? Of course they did! Usually words that only appear once in the bible can be found in other literature often from thousands of sources. This is especially true of the greek text. This being the case biblical scholars over centuries have had lots of time to ascertain the meaning of the words in the bible, not only from the bible, but from all sorts of sources. This causes me to be generally wary of "new" interpretations of the meaning of biblical words, or statements that some word was a "poor rendering".

In the discussion the word that is spoken of as appearing only once, is just a misquote from a bible commentary, as you shall see! It actually appears in two other places, and what was meant in the bible commentary that is quoted was that it didn't appear anywhere else except those three places.

To quote 1 Cor 6:9 it reads as follows in the King James with the Strong's Lexicon numbers after the words:
Know ye 1492 not 3756 that 3754 the unrighteous 94 shall 2816 not 3756 inherit 2816 the kingdom 932 of God? 2316 Be 4105 not 3361 deceived: 4105 neither 3777 fornicators, 4205 nor 3777 idolaters, 1496 nor 3777 adulterers, 3432 nor 3777 effeminate, 3120 nor 3777 abusers of themselves with 733 mankind, 733

You can see that the word effeminate has the Strong's number 3120. The Strong's listing for this reads as follows:

3120 malakos { mal-ak-os’}

of uncertain affinity;; adj

AV - soft 3, effeminate 1; 4

GK - 3434 { malakov" }

1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense
2a) effeminate
2a1) of a catamite
2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
2a4) of a male prostitute

You can see that the meanings attached to the word by the generally accepted Greek Lexicon certainly has the implication of homosexuality in 1), 2a), 2a2) and 2a3). Today we would describe 2a2) as pedophilia.

The discussion states that the word is only used in 1 Cor 6:9. This is not true as it is also used in Matt 11:8 & Luke 7:25. A well known biblical commentator Barnes comments on the words in question as follows:

Nor effeminate, malakoi. This word occurs in #Mt 11:8, and #Lu 7:25, where it is applied to clothing, and translated "soft raiment;" that is, the light, thin garments worn by the rich and great. It occurs nowhere else in the New Testament except here. (Could it be that this is where the mis-quote comes from?) Applied to morals, as it is here, it denotes those who give themselves up to a soft, luxurious, and indolent way of living; who make self-indulgence the grand object of life; who can endure no hardship, and practise no self-denial in the cause of duty and of God. The word is applied in the classic writers to the Cinaedi, the Pathics, or Catamites; those who are given up to wantonness and sensual pleasures, or who are kept to be prostituted to others. Diog. Laer. vii. 5, 4; Xenoph. Mem. iii. 7, 1; Ovid, Fast. iv. 342. The connexion here seems to demand such an interpretation, as it occurs in the description of vices of the same class—sensual and corrupt indulgences. It is well known that this vice was common among the Greeks—and particularly prevailed at Corinth.

Abusers of themselves with mankind. arsenokoitai. Paederastae, or Sodomites. Those who indulged in a vice that was common among all the heathen. See Barnes "Ro 1:27".

It seems pretty clear that Barnes believes there are good reasons for why the verse was translated "effeminate", but then maybe in today's language male prostitute, pedophile, homosexual world be more accurate.

The second word arsenokoitai, translated "abusers of themselves with mankind" has the following entry in the greek lexicon.

733 arsenokoites { ar-sen-ok-oy’-tace}

from 730 and 2845;; n m

AV - abuser of (one’s) self with mankind 1, defile (one’s) self with mankind 1; 2

GK - 780 { ajrsenokoivth" }

1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual

You might notice that the first lexicon entry has the notation "of uncertain affinity" where as this entry (733) does not. This means that in this case they know the root words from which this word is derived, i.e. entries 730 and 2845. I've included both of these below.

730 arrhen { ar’-hrane} or arsen { ar’-sane}

probably from 142;; adj

AV - male 4, man 3, man child 1, man child + 5207 1; 9

GK - 776 { a[rrhn } & 781 { a[rshn }

1) a male

2845 koite { koy’-tay}

from 2749;; n f

AV - bed 2, conceive 1, chambering 1; 4

GK - 3130 { koivth }

1) a place for laying down, resting, sleeping in
1a) a bed, couch
2) the marriage bed
2a) of adultery
3) cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful
3a) sexual intercourse

When you combine the definitions "male" and "a place for laying down, resting, sleeping in, a bed, couch, the marriage bed, of adultery, cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful, sexual intercourse." Do you think it unreasonable that a conotation of homsexuality is derived for the word which combines those meanings? It might not be the only meaning, but do you think it would include homosexuality?

Frankly I'm at a loss to know how it could not at least include homosexuality.

What interests me is that most of the arguments in the discussion can be obtained from various pro-homosex sites. It took me only a few minutes of searching to find the same sort of arguments as is presented in the discussion on those sites. Even more interesting is the idea that these are the results of the latest scholarship on the subject. The truth? They are not latest scholarship on the subject. And the latest scholarship confirms what the church has always beleived. For a starting link to lots of recent scholarship try this web site:

I'd like to leave you with one quote from somebody that has written a least two published theological books including one on this subject and is an Associate Professor of Theology:
"The biblical witness against homosexual practice is as conclusive as conclusive can be. Of course, one must still evaluate counterarguments that attempt to discount the overwhelming witness of Scripture, as I have done at length in my own work. But to pretend that the witness of Scripture on homosexual practice is something other than overwhelming, or even limited to a few isolated texts, is ridiculous."


Ruthie said...


I think it is necessary to bear in mind the context of these passages. Don't assume that the connotations of homosexuality they contain are the same as what we might mean by homosexuality today.

As you can see from the context, homosexual relationships were associated with an all over sinful lifestyle, temple prostitution and sexual exploitation. They would have had no concept of a healthy same-sex couple in a loving and faith relationship as we do today.

Given the difficulties in translating and interpreting these passages and the differences between what the Biblical writers experience of homosexuality and our own experience of same-sex relationships today - I'm not sure we can really apply these texts to the domestic lives of most gay couples today.


Graeme said...

An Open Letter to the Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold
September 30, 2003

Dear Presiding Bishop Griswold,

The following remarks were attributed to you in an Associated Press interview published yesterday (“Episcopal Leader Defends Gay Bishop,” by Rachel Zoll, AP religion writer).

He said that in biblical times there was no understanding that homosexuality was a natural orientation and not a choice. “Discreet acts of homosexuality” were condemned in the Bible because they were acts of lust instead of the “love, forgiveness, grace” of committed same-sex relationships, he said. “Homosexuality, as we understand it as an orientation, is not mentioned in the Bible,” he said.

With all due respect, if these remarks are correctly cited, you are in error on all counts.

First, there were many theories in the Greco-Roman world that posited something akin to modern sexual orientation theory. Philosophers, doctors, and moralists often attributed one or more forms of homosexual behavior, at least in part, to congenital factors. And some of the same persons could still refer to such forms as “contrary to nature”—that is, given by nature but not in conformity with embodied existence or nature’s well-working processes. Lifelong, exclusive participants in homosexual behavior were also widely known in the ancient world. Indeed, Paul's reference to the malakoi (“soft men,” men who play the sexual role of females) in 1 Corinthians 6:9 is one such instance.

Second, you assume that the absence of “choice” regarding sexual impulses absolves one of moral responsibility for the behavior arising from such impulses. Numerous sinful desires, sexual and otherwise, are not “chosen” in the sense of being manufactured willfully. That doesn’t make them any less sinful—though it can and should inform our pastoral response. Who would choose to be a pedophile if it were a simple matter of choice? Some people find it extraordinarily difficult to be limited to a single sex partner; do they choose their sexual impulses? Some people grow up without an instinctive aversion to sex with close blood relations and then fall in love with one such relative; do they simply manufacture such feelings? Paul describes sin itself in Romans 7 as an innate impulse, passed on by an ancestor figure, running through the members of the human body, and never entirely within human control. The very nature of sin is that it generates biologically related impulses. Why do you think a biological connection disqualifies an impulse from being sinful? Such thinking is patently un-biblical.

Third, biblical writers were certainly not limiting their condemnation of same-sex intercourse to particularly exploitative forms. Non-exploitative forms were known in Paul’s day and had Paul wanted to limit his condemnation to exploitative forms he certainly could have done so. The wording in Romans 1:24-27 is quite clear as regards what Paul found objectionable about same-sex intercourse: its same-sexness, persons seeking sexual integration with a non-complementary sexual same, persons erotically attracted to what they intrinsically are as sexual beings. This is sexual narcissism and/or sexual self-deception: a desire either for what one is or for what one wishes to be but in fact already is. The intertextual echoes to Genesis 1:27 (“God made them male and female”) and Genesis 2:24 (“For this reason a man shall . . . be joined to his woman/wife and the two shall become one flesh”) in Romans 1:24-27 and 1 Corinthians 6:9, respectively, confirm that Paul had in view the male-female prerequisite ordained by God at creation. (Incidentally, so did Jesus when he appealed to the same two texts from Genesis as normative and prescriptive texts for human sexual relations [Mark 10:6-8].) The beautiful image put forward in Genesis 2:18-24 is that of an original binary human split down the side into two sexually differentiated beings. If sexual relations are to be had, “one-flesh” sexual wholeness requires a re-merger of the two constituent parts produced by the splitting. By “nature” in Romans 1:24-27 Paul meant the complementary structure of males and females still transparent in material creation—a category of thinking that transcends issues of love and commitment. The description in Romans 1:27 of males mutually gratifying themselves with other males does not suggest exploitation. Nor does the mention of female-female intercourse point us in the direction of a particularly exploitative form of same-sex intercourse. The language in Romans 1:24-27 of being “given over” to preexisting desires and forsaking any heterosexual relations certainly suggests innate and exclusive passions for members of the same sex. Scripture is clearly condemning every form of same-sex intercourse. Biblical authors would no more have accepted a committed and loving homosexual union than they would have accepted a committed and loving adult incestuous union. Both types of unions are structurally incompatible: sex with sexual or familial sames.

Much more could be said about each of the points above but what I have written should suffice for now.

Even some pro-homosex biblical scholars such as Bernadette Brooten and William Schoedel recognize that “sexual orientation” and commitment would have made little difference to Paul’s indictment of same-sex intercourse. My book, The Bible and Homosexual Practice (Abingdon) which has been out for a full two years, also makes this clear (see especially pp. 347-60, 380-95). See also now my more condensed discussion in Homosexuality and the Bible (Fortress), just released, and a forthcoming article in an edited volume entitled Christian Sexuality (Kirk House), which deals extensively with orientation theory in antiquity.

There really is no excuse any more for making the kinds of false statements about Scripture that you made in the AP interview. It is especially inexcusable for a presiding bishop—an office that has guarding the faith as a chief concern—to be making such inaccurate representations of the biblical witness. I urge you to read more widely, and more carefully, as regards recent work on the subject of the Bible and homosexual behavior.


Robert A. J. Gagnon, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of New Testament

Pittsburgh Theological Seminary

Digger said...

Great comment blondzila, we so need to keep that in mind when reading any text, particulalrly the Bible. We all bring to it certain perspectives we need to be aware of, and the writers also had a certain lens through which they wrote about their experiences of God.

We do ourselves and the Bible if we forget these things.

I think thats why I've always fely uncomfortable with people citing individual verses to support a position. The Bible is the story of God's interaction with the world, a story, not a proof text.

Digger said...

Good discussion guys, this is a topic I want to engage with properly, so will post more later.

Ruthie said...

Digger, I highly recommend Walter Wink's 'Homosexuality: Questions of Conscience for the Churches'.

Also the Bridges Across website is an excellent resource, drawing from all sides of the debate and promoting dialogue rather than loggerheads.

I hope your explorations are fruitful and applaud your willingness to fully engage - its a rare thing these days :)


Saemon said...

Great discusssion on a really delicate issue. I did some ready and discussion around this issue last year, and most of the people I respect seemed to maintain that the issue of homosexuality in the bible comes back to a matter of domination over another, which in the eyes of God is an abomination.

To be honest, homosexuality as an act kind of creeps me out, but that is because I am not that way inclined - a gay friend of mine used to get wierd when I kissed my girlfriend - horses for courses. But for me all this comes back to love - Love of the other person, which I read as being the primary teaching of Christ.

To the best of my knowledge, Jesus never directly judged nor condemned anyone, and I think that as follows, we should do likewise. Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with healing the Roman Centurian's slave (homosexual relationships were the norm between Roman Soldiers and their man servants, so that they would remain faithful to their wives).

How will THEY know that we are disciples of Jesus? By our love for one another - not our judgement.

They are just my thoughts

blondzila said...

"How will THEY know that we are disciples of Jesus? By our love for one another - not our judgement. "

Brilliantly put.

owl said...

I think Romans 1 is clear. Any sin must be repented of and avoided. The order is this: 1. Love God (includes obedience)
2. Love your neighbour (includes mercy)

Saemon said...

Who do we claim to follow?

The teaching of a former Pharisee who filters everything through the be all and end all of the Mosaic Law - or at least their interpretation of it.

Or do we follow the teaching of one Jesus of Nazareth?
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your being, and love your neighbour at yourself"

Can you imagine how different the world would be without the confused teaching of Paul and the pseudo Pauls?

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Cara Mengobati Cacingan pada Anak
Obat Benjolan di Belakang Telinga
Cara Mengobati ruam Kulit pada Bayi
Cara Cepat Mengobati Amandel
Obat Luka Berair yang Tak Kunjung Sembuh
Khasiat Daun Sirsak untuk Benjolan

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Obat Benjolan di Langit2 Mulut said...

Thank you for sharing an interesting and very useful article. And let me share an article about health here I believe this is useful. Thank you :)

Cara Menghilangkan ambeien/Wasir Secara Permanen
Inilah Penyebab Mual dan Muntah secara Tiba-tiba
Obat Asma Alami (untuk semua usia),Terbukti Ampuh
Obat Diabetes Herbal, Pengobatan Alami Diabetes
Obat Penghancur Kista, Pengobatan Kista Tanpa Operasi
Cara Mengobati Konjungtivitis Secara Alami

Cara Efektif Mengobati Kaki Keseleo said...

Article very interisting, thanks for sharing information

Tips Mengobati Bidai Tulang Kering
6 Racikan Alami Untuk Mengobati Sakit Tumit
Cara Alami Mengobati Flek Paru-Paru
Pengobatan Alami Hilangkan Benjolan Di Tubuh
Pengobatan Atasi Penyakit Kencing Manis
Tips Untuk Mengobati Kencing Batu

Obat Biang Keringat Pada Bayi Anak-anak dan dewasa said...

His article is very helpful at all thanks

Cara Mengobati bisul
Cara Mengobati Benjolan Pada Mata Dengan Obat Herbal Paling Ampuh
Cara Mengobati Penyakit Gondongan Dengan Bahan Alami
Obat Asam Urat Paling Ampuh
Cara Menghilangkan Keputihan Secara Alami dan Permanen
Cara Mengobati Hematuria

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Afgan said...

Hopefully, sustenance will be easy and simplified in all matters :-) |
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De Lemon said...

When you were injured when you were upset, I would take care of you and sleep

Obat Bisul Alami
Obat Kanker Darah Alami
Cara Mengatasi Sembelit Pada Ibu Hamil
Obat Usus Buntu Alami
Mengobati Kaligata Pada Ibu Hamil
Herbal Solusi Sehat

Aulia said...

I hope the information we share is useful and can be the best solution to cure your illness ... amen

Obat Luka Diabetes
Obat Tipes Anak
Obat Batuk Berdarah
Cara Mengobati Liver
Obat Penurun Leukosit
Obat Benjolan Di Leher