Wednesday, June 18, 2008

What to do with sexual offenders?

A very good friend of mine and I have been having this debate for ages, so thought I would chuck it up on here and see what others thought.

Basically, her idea is that all repeat sexual offenders should be either physically or chemically castrated. I clarified this morning and she includes females in this (although I must admit I'm not sure how you would do that with women or what effect it would have).

Having seen and dealt with far too many young women dealing with the long-lasting effects of all sorts of sexual assault, I can see where she's coming from, but completely disagree.

I agree that just putting people into prison doesn't work with these kind of situations (and I'm not convinced it completely works in many other situations either-but thats another story) and that extensive counselling/therapy/psychological treatment is needed. I know that's not 100% effective either, but I just think castration is a bit full on.

I'm not sure, maybe I am a bit biased as a male and the thought of doing that to another man irks me, and I am basing my decision on that rather than anything else. I've wanted to kick some guys in the nuts for what they've done to girls I've known, but effectively making somebody into an asexual being seems just a bit over the top.

The other thing is, that at the end of the day, I just can't see it ever becoming law in this country, I really just can't see it happening.

Is an interesting debate anyway, and raises a whole lot of questions about the role of the Govt and law, the question for me as a Christian of forgiveness, the effectiveness of our justice system etc etc.

Love to hear what others think.


Janet Woodlock said...

I remember being told there was research to suggest that serial rapists who are castrated just become serially violent in other forms of attack... because rape emerges from a pathological desire for power rather than from an active sex drive per se.

I haven't really checked this out though.

Anonymous said...

....if I were you I would just agree with your friend. She has a very powerful wrath!!!!!

Anonymous said...

I would suspect that Jane is right, we are always told that Rape is a hate crime not a sex crime.

First time they should be treated like all criminals. They shouldn't be put anywhere near a prison. Well not at least any of the current prisons. Prisons are very bad at reforming people, we need something better.

When I think back over the forms of punishment used, stockades seem to be one of the better, problem with them is that they don't work as well when you don't have a small community where shame is meaningful.

Maybe we need to look at some form of exile, it can't work worse than prisons.

Anonymous said...

Coming from a severely biased corner, I think they should "chop it" for people who continually sexually offend.

I don't see it as "full on" (perhaps because I am biased) because the offences themselves are as severe, if not more.

Anonymous said...

Mutilating people isn't a good option, issuing an apology when you've done it to an innocent person isn't justice.

Anonymous said...

You also have serious issues about who does it. Such acts tend to be incompatible with the oaths we make doctors take, how do we get around that?

Janet Woodlock said...

Well, I thought I'd actually do a little bit of research (thanks Google, New Scientist, and Science Direct), only to find next to no research has been done in the area.

However, in the one reputable study I could find, some "chemical castration" treatments do seem to lower re-offending rates. See

I'm opposed to physical castration for exactly the same reason I'm opposed to capital punishment... to some extent the state should model what are the limits of acceptable behaviour. It's like the parent who hit their kids while telling the kids not to hit. Taking life is not OK... nor is physically mutilating other people.

That doesn't minimize rape... but I'm opposed to "tat for tat" revenge having legal sanction.

Anonymous said...

Remember, harsh and completely over the top laws are biblical. Reading Leviticus, for example, stoning and killing adults and children are commanded for a variety of offences.

God will torture people forever in the lake of fire, merely for not believing a bucket-load of unbelievable nonsense.

So in keeping with the ancient, ignorant, harsh vibe of the old testament, and the stupidity of Jesus in the new testament, I'm surprised that more Christians are not completely over the top. Except, of course, for sophisticated bible students like Janet, highly educated in the ancient text. These people are liberal theologians already on the slipery slope to hell.

See for a Godly approach to punishment.

Anonymous said...

I reckon bad blog comments should be punishable by castration...

Janet Woodlock said...

That's a bit harsh... I'd recommend counselling for repeat blog offenders.

Digger said...

Hey Janet, yeah I reckon I've heard that theory before too, but don't know any details.

Since your searches didn't show any luck, I might try my friend and see if she knows more.

RPD I agree that prison's do not necessarily work, but am unable to offer any other viable solution :(

How would exile work?

Yeah esk is an interesting debate about which would have more effect on a person. But again I don't agree with eye for any eye...

Digger said...

Yeah good call there in post 5 RPD, is a delicate tension.
And in 6 ur right, who would do that?

Nice work on doing the research there Janet, great stuff. And yeah, totally agree with what u said about the physical punishment, is a tad hypocritical in a way hey.

Thankyou David for confirming the unnecessariness (totally not a word!) of taking anything u say seriously.

Anonymous said...

Just looking through some of the keywords from the 'landover' site - hmmmmmmm:- church parody, religious jokes, religious humor, religious satire (amongst others).

Munzy said...

David you are such a dick, just piss off and keep your "godly" views to yourself.

The reason the world doesnt want anything to do with christianity is because of people like you.

People crave love. God loves people. God wants his people to love him back.

Idiots like yourself confuse this simplicity. How will people know of God's love through fear, potential torture and hate?

I cant get over the fact that you called Jesus stupid - are you even a christian? Do you even read what you write? Do you understand what being a follower of christ is?

Follow God through love dont be motivated out of fear.

Hey David, see John 8 for a Godly approach to punishment.

Anonymous said...

Shhh, don't feed the troll, he's just a troll that finds that Christians are some of the easiest people to get a rise out of. Remember what your Mother told you about bullies, ignore them and they'll go away. And on the net they can't as easily punch you :)

Exile would resemble the 18th century solution of Britian's overflowing prisons, find somewhere remote to send them. Now I wouldn't be in favour it being a one way ticket, but that could be dealt with.
Forcing people to survive in a pre industrial setting would probably teach them much more about how to fit into society than a prison will. Also it'll limit the types of drugs they'll be able to abuse :)

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I know what you're saying Digs. But still, where does forgiveness meet justice?

I totally get that this most probably won't get passed as a law *fingers crossed it doesn't*, but still makes me wonder whether as christians should we just let things go?

Like, for example, if someone hits your car. Do you make them pay to fix it? Or do let it go, forgive them and pay for it yourself because you know God will bless you? I know this has no comparitive magnitude like rape, but still along the same lines I would say.

Another question i've been thinking about is, why is it 'revenge' when we seek justice for things that have wronged us but 'justice' when it's other people who seek those same things?


Janet Woodlock said...

Short response to a complex question, Esky, but forgiveness is the job of individual Christians, justice is the job of the State (and ultimately is God's job... God permits governmental authorities and a legal system because in a fallen world this is needed!)

If someone whacks you over the head with a baseball bat, and the next week you go and clobber them over the head with a baseball bat back, in the eyes of the law this is revenge not "justice"... now two people have commited criminal assault, not just one. Justice is the job of the legal system.

Outside of the matters of criminal law where the state prosecutes (eg assault, rape, murder, child abuse) there are more minor matters of civil law where you may or may not choose to pursue your rights... eg. you may hear such a sob story from the person who's just hit your car you might choose just to fix your car yourself.

"Forgiving" someone who's murdered a member of your family does not mean they escape the legal system... because the state will seek justice regardless of your feelings on the matter.

Although it can be incredibly difficult to do, and can take a lot of time and prayer and processing, God calls us as individuals to forgive others for OUR own good. It punishes US if our lives are wrapped up in bitterness... this doesn't make the perpetrator suffer one bit. Nothing robs us of our freedom, our capacity for inner joy, our ability to move forward and grow in new directions more than bitterness does. Bitterness gives the perpetrator the power to hurt us again and again in an endless cycle.

Does that make sense?

Anonymous said...

Hey Janet, thanks for the thoughts. I am in total understanding of what you mean and trying to get across to, I agree, but only to a certain extent.

I guess, being the kind of person who seeks to go to the absolute root of understanding, I'm more questioning the legal system itself. How do we look at it from a christian perspective? DO we just leave it to the justice system? (and I'm not talking about murdering someone or taking it into our own hands, but having more influence)

Believe it or not (haha), I don't believe in the whole 'eye for an eye' approach to offences, but do think there needs to be more done in terms of reaching 'adequate justice' for individuals. I also guess it's one of the many things we cannot blanket over a population, but should approach each circumstance individually...

As a kid I was sexually abused. I'm not going out today and sexually attacking others. But I know that I was not his only victim and that he got away with just a slap on the wrist and a warning.

So I guess you could say this fuels my inability to just except the whole 'forgive and forget for our own sake'. Because saying 'forgive and forget' is totally different to living it... in fact I have never met anyone who can.

If that makes sense?

peace :)

Janet Woodlock said...

So sorry to hear that esky... totally sucks.

I do think abuse is in a different league to someone hitting your car. I think sexual abuse leaves an indelible mark in the soul, and if the justice system only metes out "token" punishment, failing to adequately recognise the terrible toll of this crime, I would imagine it leaves a deep sense of betrayal. It's almost like the state is saying "Oh, that abuse wasn't so bad.... we'll give out a harsher sentence for someone who lies in court than to someone who has violated the trust of a child so terribly."

So I'm certainly not opposed to campaigning for "proportionate" sentencing and ensuring that others aren't put through the "insult to injury" experience of a pathetically light punishment... actually I'm sympathetic to those who might want to influence the legal system in the way one can in a democracy... by campaigning to the relevant parliamentarians who are able to change law.

I haven't experienced childhood sexual abuse so this may not be in any way analogous... but I have been through major psychological trauma. What I can say is that I am in a process of healing... and that a month or so I had some powerful prayer ministry... sometimes I now wake up in the mornings feeling healing power flowing into my heart. I'm a work in progress... but I do believe in a God who (over time)... through counsellors and through prayer and through facing our own darkest shadows and going even deeper into God... can heal a wounded human heart.

Somewhere it that process there's a getting in touch with just how hurt we are... somewhere in that process there's a letting go that happens... that doesn't mean trusting the untrustworthy, that doesn't mean restoring a relationship... but it does mean a letting go of sorts.

But this is taking me years and my experience wasn't nearly so bad as yours... so I don't say any of that glibly

Anonymous said...

Don't be sorry, I have come out of far worse with a testimony of God's amazing love and grace... Not to mention perspective and his willingness to share my burdens :)

I was recently pondering forgiveness (a common theme within my life- being a sensative, creative type haha!) Is forgivness just letting go? Accepting what has happened and finding a way to let the healing begin? Or is there more to it?

I think this is another one of those "there's no black and white's in life, it's more like shades of grey" moments...

But perhaps if I understood forgiveness more (not that I've never forgiven anyone in my life haha) justice, true in its form would make more sense to me.

just a thought...

Janet Woodlock said...

Wow... that is such a powerful thing to say...

I agree that forgiveness is a really complex thing... it always involves a letting go of sorts (of a grudge, of the "right" to get back at someone, of replaying the offence over and over, of a level of hurt)... it sometimes involves reconciliation, and sometimes not.

I think I'd want to think about that question more...

Anonymous said...

I don't believe a modern society should have a 'justice' system. It is just a way to ensure that revenge is humane and proportional.
I dream of just having a 'corrections' system. Now the more serious the problem the longer it would take to correct them. But all releases from such facilities would be conditional on a doctor believing that the behaviour has been modified.

Remember this is just a dream :(

Carola said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carola said...

Ive been going through Romans with my study group, and one thing I've been reminded of [amongst the many other things to consider in such light reading - note the sarcasm] is that we have our Leaders and Authorities in position because whether any of us believe it or not - God put them there. Yes, even Kevin Rudd. God is in control and He is the ultimate Justice system. And that sometimes bad things happen in life for us to learn good things from it.

We may have been wronged - and so severely in some instances - by someone, and the "justice" system of this place we call Earth can be so lacking a real sense of relief or conclusion or other, but I think we as Christians should try and remember - they really have yet to be Judged. When the world comes to an end, we are ALL going to be judged. On everything. Nothing has gone unnoticed, and I'm pretty sure we all have a book of things we will be reminded of what we did - even if we have forgotten.

I've not had something terrible personally happen to me, but I do know many who have. I really wish only love on those who have had something happen to them.

After reading everyones responses [and ignoring David's], we all really want the same thing. But we live in a world when its going down the drain one quick decade at a time. "The end is closer now than when we first Believed".

In an ideal world if chopping off a crim's tallywhacker or 'chemically castrating' them would work in stopping their act of violence then it could've been considered. And that punishment likely was back when punishment for crimes was severe and shaming one's family was also a hefty punishment someone could receive for something they have done. But bad incidences still happened then too.

So - there's me sharing my 5c worth of thought. I know that when I am angry about something intense, I often only want to see red. And i know that when I have been wronged I want them to realise this, and feel bad. I from that I wonder why God doesn't punish those who offend and hurt others terribly as soon as it happens. And then I remember that I too am a Sinner, and though my sin of anger or envy eg is not severe as rape or murder - in our eyes - in Gods they are equally Sin, and I'm so very thankful that i've not been judged and punished for what I have done when I should've been.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, don't be like God who acted on whim or divine emotion. Ordering the slaughter of whole groups of people (we call it ethnic cleansing but God called it justice). Drowning the whole of humanity except for Noah and his family. Having various fits of anger and rage.

Get over yourself, God.

Why can't we have a rational, calm and wise God who knows what He's doing. A God who doesn't make mistakes. A God who understands justice. A God who doesn't expect fear or worship.

Actually, the bible God does sound like He is just an angry old man with slightly more power. I know it's not politically correct on this forum, but maybe bible-sky-God was just a made up character. If that's the case, it would be downright stupid to base any form of morality or justice on the ravings of stupid, ancient tribe dwellers.

Janet Woodlock said...

It's interesting you should say that... I recall speaking with someone who had a powerful "near death experience"... and the report back around judgement was that "everyone will know justice has been done".

I think you're right that having an "eternal perspective" is a component of trusting God... for justice, and for everything else.

As for a "corrections system"... it's an interesting idea with some appeal, but who is able to judge if someone is truly "corrected"? I can see problems with keeping someone in prison indefinitely because it's difficult to tell whether a person is truly "corrected".

Janet Woodlock said...

Oh, I was addressing Carola in my comment, not David.

And by the way... anyone who attempts to argue there is no God based on moral judgments has just given a huge "free kick" to those who argue for the existence of God... because to acknowledge good and evil is to acknowledge morality... and it's particularly difficult to defend the concept of "right and wrong" unless there is a moral foundation to the universe... once we acknowledge morality we're really in the realm of religion... that values and morality are REAL and are part of the fabric of the universe. So make you're choice... either morality is some unsupported illusion and the universe is nothing but matter... or the world of spiritual values is real. You can't have it both ways.

David... your arguments here are not only irrelevant (and highly inappropriate in the midst of a particularly sensitive topic) but puerile. To behave like a teenager at your age is pretty pathetic.

And the issues you've raised I've explored with you before, so I know you're not interested in exploring answers. So what I am interested in is your addiction to stirring Christians.

As I've noted before... the place that this behaviour emerges from DOES become relevant to this thread... which is around forgiveness and letting go. Most people your age are comfortable with their beliefs, and quite happy to respect other people's beliefs. The fact that isn't the case for you is (I think) relevant to some elements of this discussion.

Anonymous said...

You disappoint, Janet, by giving an undergraduate response. I expect at least a PhD level reply. And you can't resist armchair psychonanalysis, can you?

Whatever choices people make with respect to personal matters, one thing is very clear. Imaginary spiritual entities will not bear any fruit - only lead to further confusion. Encouraging people to believe in a world of spiritual entities, distinct from the material world, is deceitful and unhelpful. You may as well say to them, "Jesus loves you" or "I'll pray for you" - demeaning and pointless put-downs.

Anonymous said...

Haha David, you are rad!

And you're right, God does sound pretty messed up in the bible.
I mean Noah's flood?? Abraham, 'kill your son'?? Jericho's fall?? Oh and yes, the ever so famous 'lets drown the Egyptians in a sea'??? What the??
*laugh laugh laugh* (in a very english mockery kinda way)

I to, struggle with understanding the character of 'God' at times. In fact, the more I try to understand him, the more confused I get.

I mean, don't get me wrong here, I believe in him. But there are times when I just wanna know what on earth is going through his head...assuming he has one.

I once heard someone say that knowing God is knowing him in yourself, personally and not through someone else. Which I like because when people talk about God it's really airy fairy and fluffy... the God of love and compassion. But I dunno, there's bound to be more to him then that ey.

Just a thought, peace :)

Janet Woodlock said...

Ha ha... well, based on the comments to date, a doctoral level response around religion and philosophy would be pitching a bit high... when you're ready to sign up for doctoral studies in this area I'm happy to send you the required reading list.

And by the way, it's not armchair psychoanalysis... that would require a meaningful dialogue... but I am drawn to make hypotheses about this (I think pretty odd) behaviour.

You've made similar highly disrespectful comments, on similarly irrelevant threads, over and over, over years. I've answered all these kinds of questions before on Signposts (trawl back through the threads... I was once under the delusion you asked questions because you were interested in the answers) It goes over and over the same loop, and occasionally ramps up from disrespectful to incredibly offensive ("It's a shame your mother's not dead" was one recent example).

So one hypothesis I do have about this apparently obsessive behaviour is a deep anger you've never dealt with... as noted, this is where it becomes relevant to this thread, because hurt mixed with unforgiveness leave people "stuck".

Another is a form of genuine obsessive compulsive disorder, because repetitive "God thoughts" are one of the commonest manifestations. Medication provides blessed relief if so.

Or you could just "try your luck" for a response on a million different sites hoping for a reaction for some reason... maybe you have multiple different personas depending on the type of site.

In that case Digger, sorry, I've just fed the Troll.

Digger said...

Man the comments on this post are going off like a frog in a sock!
Would have to be close to the most ever!

David, thankyou for doubling my readership!
Ever since you've been posting, people have been here in their droves!

Have you ever considered writing for the Herald Sun? They love irrational, sensationalist, polemics like yourself. Although they do have a great sports section.

Munnsy, as I said, you've totally been sucked in, just as I was on the first Kiwi joke post.

Owl, great pick up on the landover site. As soon as I saw old Daveo post that, i knew he wasn't for real. Some very funny religious parody stuff on that site.

Digger said...

Carola, I too am reading through Romans-and will eb studying it next semester, which will hopefully shed a bit more light, and wonder about that Romans 13 stuff.

So where does that place someone like Mugabe? Does that mean God put him in power? I've always struggled to understand where that chapter is coming from.

Anonymous said...

For a glimpse of what a liberal theological outlook leads to read a quick summary about what happened to Billy Graham over the years. Apparently he now believes people of all faiths, or none, can end up heaven.

You, dear reader, can beat Janet at her own game. Join the liberal theological band wagon now. Toss out all that nonsense about literal talking snakes, forbidden fruit, world-wide floods, resurection and trinity mumbo-jumbo. Rid your mind of simplistic concepts like the Bible as the word of God.

Some words of advice: if you're a thinking, sophisticated person, like Janet, you will eventually toss out all the above nonsense, anyway. Do it now and save years of fruitless church-swapping, arguments with pastors/ministers and the like.

Remember, God is just a concept, isn't he, Janet? God is a the meme above all memes.

Carola said...

I think that in circumstances revolving around someone of such destruction like Mugabe, or Hitler, or anyone else who inflicts such hich power over people by using the threat of death to get their way, we can't expect to know why they are where they are - or for what reason. They are people with major problems. Sick in the head and heart. And it angers us.

In Romans 9: 18 it reads:

"So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen".

This then brings about the whole predestination talk. Are there some who never have a chance to know the saving grace of God, because he decided they don't? Am I a Christian only because God picked me out to be? But isn't he ever loving and wants as many saved as possible?

To think about what God thinks about, His reactions, His thoughts, His reasoning for everything, to even try and contemplate how it all works out in the end - is totally and utterly mind boggling. It literally hurts my head.

In Romans 9:22-24 it says:

"In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles."

And then in Romans 10:33 we are greatly reminded:

"Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!"

I believe God has everything in the order its meant to be. Things are allowed to happen so his Glory and Grace can grow and shine and be a Light to the World. If everything was great, [life, people, the world], we'd never know what turmoil we live in. And now we know what a horrid world we live in [with endless wonderful things, of course] we know how great it is to know God's love and to look forward to His return.

I hope that helps clarrify some things. And don't take my comments as Gospel, for I am not the Teacher. Read it for yourself and make your own conclusion about it all. But these are just somethings I've recently been struggling about, and because of the study, have understood it this way...

^j^ [thats supposedly an angel :P]

Anonymous said...

thinking more on Romans 9: 18:

"So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen".

That's some seriously tough to digest words. The context does help a bit though, this is a response to people wondering why they are not being visibly blessed like other Christians they see and are wondering if that means they are doing things wrong.
So this passage surmises the previous verses that talk about God being 'fickle' and that what he does for you isn't always a result of what you've done for him.

Hrm when I started writing that it made me feel better about the passage, now I'm not so sure.

Carola said...

Try doing a study on it! Man its some heavy stuff - confronting and captivating about who we are - and yet, totally uncomprehensible about why God does what He does.

I really recommend studying the book of Romans - and with a study group. Paul really makes you think about alot - its quite a wakeup call really - and by sharing your frustration of not understanding why so many things happen with other people who are likely reading it the same actually - & amazingly - helps to figure out, [or like we did..] decide that its just too massive to even try and think about because we just cannot understand at all!!!

RPD - I hope that you do get some relief about this all, now or later from speaking with others or personal study. Its not the easiest book to grasp, but know you are not the only one who has thought that...


Janet Woodlock said...

My perspective is that God ordains governments (in a sinful world) as a better option than mob anarchy... because in a sinful world there will be greed and violence, and a system of law and government is needed to keep these things in check.

I don't believe however that everything that happens is God's will... if this was the case there would be no such things as free will or moral choice. God exercises his sovereignty over the end of all things... but I believe His love gives genuine freedom.

This has been well argued from Augustine and even earlier church fathers, and onwards until now. It's over 50 years old but "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis is still a good read on these kinds of issues.

So just because God ordains systems of governments as a concession to our sinfulness, this doesn't mean he appoints a Mugabe or a Hitler... the free will of humans and the real force of evil in the world has to be seen as active forces in this world. Otherwise God is the author of evil... I have a problem with that.

David... thanks for illustrating my points so well. Good effort.

Carola said...

Thankyou, Janet! That is actually what I was trying to get around to say! You have put it so much better than I tried... :)

Anonymous said...

Apparently chemical castration is the answer, at least for Queensland

Anonymous said...

This topic is quite close at hand for me as last year i found out one of my girls was abused by her dad. i cried asking God why.
I still dont know why these things happen or what we as christians should or could do about these people.

I personally would like to see them publicly shamed.

but thats just me.

Anonymous said...

I like he quote:

"If this reduces offending, even in one of these cases, then it will be worthwhile."

Anonymous said...

I can't understand the double standard that governments seem to keep. Many governments have 'sex offender' registries, where you can find out where sex offenders live. Either the government is admitting that it lets people it believes will offend again out into the community or the registries are not needed.

What chance do these people have if everyone can just find out where they live? Also this focus takes away emphasis on what is common, sexual abuse occurs between people who know each other. You're more likely to be raped by your boy friend than the guy in the trench coat at the pub, staying the night at uncle Bobs is more dangerous than walking down the street for bread.

Which of the above do we fear more though?

Sorry for this reasonably off topic post but it always eats away at me.

Anonymous said...

Comment 43:

To Rockpaperdynamite.

As someone who has 'seen the light at the end of a tunnel' in an awful event in my life involving sexual abuse, I often volunteer as a light ear and support to people who have gone through the same.

If I've noticed anything, it's that both situations (boyfriend and 'getting bread') happen just as often as each other. I don't believe in chance or luck or "being in the wrong place at the wrong time", but sexual abuse is random.

As for the other point, I don't know whether you know anyone who has been sexually abused. But the most common reaction is a weight that they carry for the rest of their lives. I wish I could explain it more but I fear this is not the place to do so. But something to consider is, why should an offender recieve a second chance when a victim cannot recieve a new life or mind? (said in the least revengeful mind frame possible)

Hope that helps a lil :)

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